Can We Remove the Square-Root in Adaptive Gradient Methods? A Second-Order Perspective
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Abstract (arXiv)
Adaptive gradient optimizers like Adam(W) are the default training algorithms for many deep learning architectures, such as transformers. Their diagonal preconditioner is based on the gradient outer product which is incorporated into the parameter update via a square root. While these methods are often motivated as approximate second-order methods, the square root represents a fundamental difference. In this work, we investigate how the behavior of adaptive methods changes when we remove the root, i.e., strengthen their second-order motivation. Surprisingly, we find that such square-root-free adaptive methods close the generalization gap to SGD on convolutional architectures, while maintaining their root-based counterpart's performance on transformers. The second-order perspective also has practical benefits for developing non-diagonal methods that can incorporate arbitrary curvature approximations through the concept of preconditioner invariance. In contrast to root-based methods like Shampoo, root-free counterparts work well and fast with half-precision since they do not require numerically unstable matrix root decompositions and inversions. Overall, our findings provide new insights into the development of adaptive methods and raise important questions regarding the overlooked role of adaptivity in their success. (experiment code: https://github.com/yorkerlin/remove-the-square-root optimizer code: https://github.com/f-dangel/sirfshampoo)
Key facts. Cited by 25 papers in the map (data through 7 Oct 2026). Builds on 36 of its 63 references that are in the map. First posted on arXiv 5 Feb 2024.
Builds on
36 of 63 references.
References · 36
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Citing papers per year: 2024: 8; 2025: 10; 2026: 7.
25 papers.
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- 2024SOAP: Improving and Stabilizing Shampoo using Adamcited by 179
- 2025ASGO: Adaptive Structured Gradient Optimizationcited by 55
- 2024A New Perspective on Shampoo's Preconditionercited by 54
- 2025COSMOS: A Hybrid Adaptive Optimizer for Memory-Efficient Training of LLMscited by 28
- 2025Purifying Shampoo: Investigating Shampoo's Heuristics by Decomposing its Preconditionercited by 21
- 2024SWAN: SGD with Normalization and Whitening Enables Stateless LLM Trainingcited by 20
- 2024FAdam: Adam is a natural gradient optimizer using diagonal empirical Fisher informationcited by 17
- 2024AdaFisher: Adaptive Second Order Optimization via Fisher Informationcited by 14
- 2024Bayesian Online Natural Gradient (BONG)cited by 14
- 2025Fishers for Free? Approximating the Fisher Information Matrix by Recycling the Squared Gradient Accumulatorcited by 13
- 2025Understanding and Improving Shampoo and SOAP via Kullback-Leibler Minimizationcited by 13
- 2026On the Width Scaling of Neural Optimizers Under Matrix Operator Norms I: Row/Column Normalization and Hyperparameter Transfercited by 11
13 more
- 2026Curvature-Aware Optimization for High-Accuracy Physics-Informed Neural Networkscited by 11
- 2025Position: Curvature Matrices Should Be Democratized via Linear Operatorscited by 9
- 2025Gradient Descent as Loss Landscape Navigation: a Normative Framework for Deriving Learning Rulescited by 4
- 2025Stochastic Approximation with Block Coordinate Optimal Stepsizescited by 3
- 2025Adam or Gauss-Newton? A Comparative Study In Terms of Basis Alignment and SGD Noisecited by 2
- 2026Gradient Regularized Natural Gradientscited by 1
- 2026Finite-Horizon Input-Output Dynamics of Minibatch Perturbations in AdamWcited by 1
- 2024Approximated Orthogonal Projection Unit: Stabilizing Regression Network Training Using Natural Gradientcited by 0
- 2024Stein Variational Newton Neural Network Ensemblescited by 0
- 2025Spectral-factorized Positive-definite Curvature Learning for NN Trainingcited by 0
- 2026HomeAdam: Adam and AdamW Algorithms Sometimes Go Home to Obtain Better Provable Generalizationcited by 0
- 2026Control Allocation in Neural Network Optimization: Joint Affine Control of Weight and Bias Updatescited by 0
- 2026When the Preconditioning Exponent Turns Negative: Learning-Rate Coupling and Cross-Environment Generalizationcited by 0
- 2026Finite-Horizon Input-Output Dynamics of Minibatch Perturbations in AdamW20 Aug 2026
- 2026Control Allocation in Neural Network Optimization: Joint Affine Control of Weight and Bias Updates4 Aug 2026
- 2026When the Preconditioning Exponent Turns Negative: Learning-Rate Coupling and Cross-Environment Generalization25 Jul 2026
- 2026Curvature-Aware Optimization for High-Accuracy Physics-Informed Neural Networks6 Apr 2026
- 2026On the Width Scaling of Neural Optimizers Under Matrix Operator Norms I: Row/Column Normalization and Hyperparameter Transfer10 Mar 2026
- 2026HomeAdam: Adam and AdamW Algorithms Sometimes Go Home to Obtain Better Provable Generalization3 Mar 2026
- 2026Gradient Regularized Natural Gradients26 Jan 2026
- 2025Gradient Descent as Loss Landscape Navigation: a Normative Framework for Deriving Learning Rules30 Oct 2025
- 2025Adam or Gauss-Newton? A Comparative Study In Terms of Basis Alignment and SGD Noise15 Oct 2025
- 2025Understanding and Improving Shampoo and SOAP via Kullback-Leibler Minimization3 Sep 2025
- 2025Fishers for Free? Approximating the Fisher Information Matrix by Recycling the Squared Gradient Accumulator24 Jul 2025
- 2025Stochastic Approximation with Block Coordinate Optimal Stepsizes11 Jul 2025
13 more
- 2025Purifying Shampoo: Investigating Shampoo's Heuristics by Decomposing its Preconditioner4 Jun 2025
- 2025ASGO: Adaptive Structured Gradient Optimization26 Mar 2025
- 2025COSMOS: A Hybrid Adaptive Optimizer for Memory-Efficient Training of LLMs24 Feb 2025
- 2025Spectral-factorized Positive-definite Curvature Learning for NN Training10 Feb 2025
- 2025Position: Curvature Matrices Should Be Democratized via Linear Operators31 Jan 2025
- 2024SWAN: SGD with Normalization and Whitening Enables Stateless LLM Training17 Dec 2024
- 2024Stein Variational Newton Neural Network Ensembles4 Nov 2024
- 2024Approximated Orthogonal Projection Unit: Stabilizing Regression Network Training Using Natural Gradient23 Sep 2024
- 2024SOAP: Improving and Stabilizing Shampoo using Adam17 Sep 2024
- 2024A New Perspective on Shampoo's Preconditioner25 Jun 2024
- 2024Bayesian Online Natural Gradient (BONG)30 May 2024
- 2024AdaFisher: Adaptive Second Order Optimization via Fisher Information26 May 2024
- 2024FAdam: Adam is a natural gradient optimizer using diagonal empirical Fisher information21 May 2024
- 2024SOAP: Improving and Stabilizing Shampoo using Adamcited by 179
- 2025ASGO: Adaptive Structured Gradient Optimizationcited by 55
- 2024A New Perspective on Shampoo's Preconditionercited by 54
- 2025COSMOS: A Hybrid Adaptive Optimizer for Memory-Efficient Training of LLMscited by 28
- 2025Purifying Shampoo: Investigating Shampoo's Heuristics by Decomposing its Preconditionercited by 21
- 2024SWAN: SGD with Normalization and Whitening Enables Stateless LLM Trainingcited by 20
- 2024FAdam: Adam is a natural gradient optimizer using diagonal empirical Fisher informationcited by 17
- 2024AdaFisher: Adaptive Second Order Optimization via Fisher Informationcited by 14
- 2024Bayesian Online Natural Gradient (BONG)cited by 14
- 2025Fishers for Free? Approximating the Fisher Information Matrix by Recycling the Squared Gradient Accumulatorcited by 13
- 2025Understanding and Improving Shampoo and SOAP via Kullback-Leibler Minimizationcited by 13
- 2026On the Width Scaling of Neural Optimizers Under Matrix Operator Norms I: Row/Column Normalization and Hyperparameter Transfercited by 11
12 most cited of 25 All 25 (JSON)
- 2026Finite-Horizon Input-Output Dynamics of Minibatch Perturbations in AdamW20 Aug 2026
- 2026Control Allocation in Neural Network Optimization: Joint Affine Control of Weight and Bias Updates4 Aug 2026
- 2026When the Preconditioning Exponent Turns Negative: Learning-Rate Coupling and Cross-Environment Generalization25 Jul 2026
- 2026Curvature-Aware Optimization for High-Accuracy Physics-Informed Neural Networks6 Apr 2026
- 2026On the Width Scaling of Neural Optimizers Under Matrix Operator Norms I: Row/Column Normalization and Hyperparameter Transfer10 Mar 2026
- 2026HomeAdam: Adam and AdamW Algorithms Sometimes Go Home to Obtain Better Provable Generalization3 Mar 2026
- 2026Gradient Regularized Natural Gradients26 Jan 2026
- 2025Gradient Descent as Loss Landscape Navigation: a Normative Framework for Deriving Learning Rules30 Oct 2025
- 2025Adam or Gauss-Newton? A Comparative Study In Terms of Basis Alignment and SGD Noise15 Oct 2025
- 2025Understanding and Improving Shampoo and SOAP via Kullback-Leibler Minimization3 Sep 2025
- 2025Fishers for Free? Approximating the Fisher Information Matrix by Recycling the Squared Gradient Accumulator24 Jul 2025
- 2025Stochastic Approximation with Block Coordinate Optimal Stepsizes11 Jul 2025
12 newest of 25 All 25 (JSON)