# Normalize-Then-Precondition: A Hierarchical Approach to Marginal Scale and Interaction Geometry for LLM Training

arXiv: https://arxiv.org/abs/2609.36692 · HTML: https://mlsanity.com/paper/2609.36692/

## Key facts

- No citing papers in the map yet (data through 14 Oct 2026).
- Builds on 24 of its 33 references that are in the map.
- First posted on arXiv 29 Sep 2026.

## Builds on (most cited first, 24 of 24)

- [Exploring the Limits of Transfer Learning with a Unified Text-to-Text Transformer](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1910.10683/) (2019)
- [LLaMA: Open and Efficient Foundation Language Models](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2302.13971/) (2023)
- [Qwen3 Technical Report](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2505.09388/) (2025)
- [The Pile: An 800GB Dataset of Diverse Text for Language Modeling](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2101.00027/) (2020)
- [Optimizing Neural Networks with Kronecker-factored Approximate Curvature](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1503.05671/) (2015)
- [GaLore: Memory-Efficient LLM Training by Gradient Low-Rank Projection](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2403.03507/) (2024)
- [Symbolic Discovery of Optimization Algorithms](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2302.06675/) (2023)
- [Muon is Scalable for LLM Training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.16982/) (2025)
- [Shampoo: Preconditioned Stochastic Tensor Optimization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1802.09568/) (2018)
- [Sophia: A Scalable Stochastic Second-order Optimizer for Language Model Pre-training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2305.14342/) (2023)
- [Old Optimizer, New Norm: An Anthology](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2409.20325/) (2024)
- [Training Deep Learning Models with Norm-Constrained LMOs](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.07529/) (2025)
- [Adam-mini: Use Fewer Learning Rates To Gain More](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2406.16793/) (2024)
- [NorMuon: Making Muon more efficient and scalable](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2510.05491/) (2025)
- [A Distributed Data-Parallel PyTorch Implementation of the Distributed Shampoo Optimizer for Training Neural Networks At-Scale](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2309.06497/) (2023)
- [AdaMuon: Adaptive Muon Optimizer](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2507.11005/) (2025)
- [Cautious Optimizers: Improving Training with One Line of Code](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2411.16085/) (2024)
- [Controlled LLM Training on Spectral Sphere](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2601.08393/) (2026)
- [The Sharpness Disparity Principle in Transformers for Accelerating Language Model Pre-Training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.19002/) (2025)
- [SWAN: SGD with Normalization and Whitening Enables Stateless LLM Training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2412.13148/) (2024)
- [MuonEq: Balancing Before Orthogonalization with Lightweight Equilibration](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2603.28254/) (2026)
- [RMNP: Row-Momentum Normalized Preconditioning for Scalable Matrix-Based Optimization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2603.20527/) (2026)
- [Mano: Restriking Manifold Optimization for LLM Training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2601.23000/) (2026)
- [On the Width Scaling of Neural Optimizers Under Matrix Operator Norms I: Row/Column Normalization and Hyperparameter Transfer](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2603.09952/) (2026)

## Abstract (arXiv)

Matrix optimizers have emerged as a promising direction, with Muon standing out as a prominent design. Revisiting Muon through its full-Gram representation, we observe that it jointly processes marginal-scale and interaction information. This opens an alternative way to organize geometric information hierarchically, motivating the Normalize-Then-Precondition framework. Specifically, it first uses diagonal-Gram information to construct a marginally normalized update, then applies spectral preconditioning to its directional interaction geometry. Building on this framework, we develop NormPre with NormPre-G and NormPre-L adopting global and localized spectral preconditioning, grounded in spectral-norm steepest descent and a regularized formulation followed by leading mode selection, respectively. To enable large-scale training, NormPre-G uses Newton-Schulz iterations and NormPre-L employs randomized sketching to approximate the leading interaction eigenspace. Theoretically, we establish O(T-1/2) convergence guarantees for simplified versions of NormPre. Across extensive pretraining experiments on GPT-2 Small, LLaMA and Qwen3, both variants consistently outperform AdamW, Muon and MANO under matched training budgets. Further efficiency and spectral analyses reveal the complementary strengths of two variants and characterize their performance-efficiency trade-off. We open-source our code through a GitHub repository at https://github.com/zx-gong/NormPre.