# Derivative-Free Structured Updates for Muon

arXiv: https://arxiv.org/abs/2609.17759 · HTML: https://mlsanity.com/paper/2609.17759/

## Key facts

- No citing papers in the map yet (data through 14 Oct 2026).
- Builds on 5 of its 15 references that are in the map.
- First posted on arXiv 15 Sep 2026.

## Builds on (most cited first, 5 of 5)

- [Muon is Scalable for LLM Training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.16982/) (2025)
- [Muon Optimizes Under Spectral Norm Constraints](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2506.15054/) (2025)
- [A Note on the Convergence of Muon](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.02900/) (2025)
- [Isotropic Curvature Model for Understanding Deep Learning Optimization: Is Gradient Orthogonalization Optimal?](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2511.00674/) (2025)
- [A New Two-dimensional Model-based Subspace Method for Large-scale Unconstrained Derivative-free Optimization: 2D-MoSub](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2309.14855/) (2023)

## Abstract (arXiv)

Muon updates matrix-valued neural-network parameters by orthogonalizing a gradient-based momentum matrix. Its reliance on derivatives limits its use when gradients are unavailable or unreliable. We develop a derivative-free framework that constructs Muon-style updates from structured finite differences. Four variants are considered: full entrywise recovery, random low-rank surrogates, basis-aligned rank-one probing, and direct structured search. Exhaustive basis-aligned probing is equivalent, up to positive scaling before ideal polar orthogonalization, to coordinate finite differences. Matrix-regression experiments show that random rank-one probing can reduce the number of function evaluations substantially, at the cost of less accurate updates. Controlled noisy-gradient experiments on regression and a neural network illustrate when accurate function values can compensate for an unreliable gradient oracle. A small CartPole study further examines orthogonal rank-one probes under a fixed episode budget. These results support structured probing as a practical option for selected black-box problems; they do not establish a general convergence guarantee or an advantage over accurate, inexpensive gradients.