# Rethinking Normalization Placement for LLMs: Post-Norm under Curriculum Depth Growing

arXiv: https://arxiv.org/abs/2608.13156 · HTML: https://mlsanity.com/paper/2608.13156/

## Key facts

- No citing papers in the map yet (data through 14 Oct 2026).
- Builds on 21 of its 27 references that are in the map.
- First posted on arXiv 13 Aug 2026.

## Builds on (most cited first, 21 of 21)

- [Attention Is All You Need](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1706.03762/) (2017)
- [LLaMA: Open and Efficient Foundation Language Models](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2302.13971/) (2023)
- [Distilling the Knowledge in a Neural Network](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1503.02531/) (2015)
- [RoFormer: Enhanced Transformer with Rotary Position Embedding](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2104.09864/) (2021)
- [DistilBERT, a distilled version of BERT: smaller, faster, cheaper and lighter](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1910.01108/) (2019)
- [GLU Variants Improve Transformer](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2002.05202/) (2020)
- [Root Mean Square Layer Normalization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1910.07467/) (2019)
- [TinyBERT: Distilling BERT for Natural Language Understanding](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1909.10351/) (2019)
- [On Layer Normalization in the Transformer Architecture](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2002.04745/) (2020)
- [MobileBERT: a Compact Task-Agnostic BERT for Resource-Limited Devices](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2004.02984/) (2020)
- [Sheared LLaMA: Accelerating Language Model Pre-training via Structured Pruning](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2310.06694/) (2023)
- [ShortGPT: Layers in Large Language Models are More Redundant Than You Expect](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2403.03853/) (2024)
- [Net2Net: Accelerating Learning via Knowledge Transfer](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1511.05641/) (2015)
- [Understanding the Difficulty of Training Transformers](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2004.08249/) (2020)
- [Fixup Initialization: Residual Learning Without Normalization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1901.09321/) (2019)
- [DeepNet: Scaling Transformers to 1,000 Layers](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2203.00555/) (2022)
- [LLaMA Pro: Progressive LLaMA with Block Expansion](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2401.02415/) (2024)
- [nGPT: Normalized Transformer with Representation Learning on the Hypersphere](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2410.01131/) (2024)
- [Peri-LN: Revisiting Normalization Layer in the Transformer Architecture](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.02732/) (2025)
- [Stability of Transformers under Layer Normalization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2510.09904/) (2025)
- [GeoNorm: Unify Pre-Norm and Post-Norm with Geodesic Optimization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2601.22095/) (2026)

## Abstract (arXiv)

Pre-norm is the standard normalization placement in modern Transformers because it facilitates joint optimization of full-depth models. We ask whether this preference persists when depth is introduced through a curriculum. In curriculum depth growth, each appended block receives the boundary representation produced by a trained prefix, making normalization placement relevant to forward conditioning. We therefore test whether placement and training curriculum interact. In a controlled distillation study with a Qwen3-8B teacher and a nine-layer student, pre-norm and post-norm are indistinguishable under joint training, differing by 0.0004 validation CE, while post-norm improves over pre-norm by 0.0328 under curriculum growth, an order of magnitude larger. A post-joint control matched by student active-layer tokens remains worse than post-grow, which rules out compute as the sole explanation. The ranking crosses over during the curriculum: post-norm takes the lead once blocks are appended. Single-block and freeze controls localize the ranking change to block appending rather than shallow-block quality or retraining. Boundary diagnostics associate post-norm with stable residual scales and pre-norm with structural-token scale drift; on a fixed batch, the final pre-grow block is also nearly identity-mapped. Together with the phase-wise crossover, these observations are consistent with boundary-scale conditioning after new blocks are appended. The results motivate treating normalization placement and training curriculum as coupled design choices in this distillation setting.