# SOAP, Muon, and Beyond: Pushing LLM Pretraining Scales

arXiv: https://arxiv.org/abs/2607.20548 · HTML: https://mlsanity.com/paper/2607.20548/

## Key facts

- Cited by 6 papers in the map (data through 14 Oct 2026).
- Builds on 58 of its 74 references that are in the map.
- First posted on arXiv 13 Jul 2026.

## Builds on (most cited first, 30 of 58)

- [Language Models are Few-Shot Learners](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2005.14165/) (2020)
- [Qwen3 Technical Report](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2505.09388/) (2025)
- [Megatron-LM: Training Multi-Billion Parameter Language Models Using Model Parallelism](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1909.08053/) (2019)
- [Accurate, Large Minibatch SGD: Training ImageNet in 1 Hour](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1706.02677/) (2017)
- [Transformers are SSMs: Generalized Models and Efficient Algorithms Through Structured State Space Duality](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2405.21060/) (2024)
- [ZeRO: Memory Optimizations Toward Training Trillion Parameter Models](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1910.02054/) (2019)
- [Optimizing Neural Networks with Kronecker-factored Approximate Curvature](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1503.05671/) (2015)
- [Large Batch Optimization for Deep Learning: Training BERT in 76 minutes](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1904.00962/) (2019)
- [PyTorch FSDP: Experiences on Scaling Fully Sharded Data Parallel](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2304.11277/) (2023)
- [DeepSeek LLM: Scaling Open-Source Language Models with Longtermism](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2401.02954/) (2024)
- [Large Batch Training of Convolutional Networks](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1708.03888/) (2017)
- [Symbolic Discovery of Optimization Algorithms](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2302.06675/) (2023)
- [Muon is Scalable for LLM Training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.16982/) (2025)
- [Shampoo: Preconditioned Stochastic Tensor Optimization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1802.09568/) (2018)
- [Better & Faster Large Language Models via Multi-token Prediction](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2404.19737/) (2024)
- [An Empirical Model of Large-Batch Training](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1812.06162/) (2018)
- [Train longer, generalize better: closing the generalization gap in large batch training of neural networks](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1705.08741/) (2017)
- [One weird trick for parallelizing convolutional neural networks](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1404.5997/) (2014)
- [Old Optimizer, New Norm: An Anthology](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2409.20325/) (2024)
- [SOAP: Improving and Stabilizing Shampoo using Adam](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2409.11321/) (2024)
- [Training Deep Learning Models with Norm-Constrained LMOs](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2502.07529/) (2025)
- [Small-scale proxies for large-scale Transformer training instabilities](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2309.14322/) (2023)
- [Scaling Laws and Compute-Optimal Training Beyond Fixed Training Durations](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2405.18392/) (2024)
- [MiniMax-01: Scaling Foundation Models with Lightning Attention](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2501.08313/) (2025)
- [Fast Approximate Natural Gradient Descent in a Kronecker-factored Eigenbasis](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1806.03884/) (2018)
- [Dissecting Adam: The Sign, Magnitude and Variance of Stochastic Gradients](https://mlsanity.com/paper/1705.07774/) (2017)
- [The Polar Express: Optimal Matrix Sign Methods and Their Application to the Muon Algorithm](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2505.16932/) (2025)
- [On the SDEs and Scaling Rules for Adaptive Gradient Algorithms](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2205.10287/) (2022)
- [Nemotron-H: A Family of Accurate and Efficient Hybrid Mamba-Transformer Models](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2504.03624/) (2025)
- [Fantastic Pretraining Optimizers and Where to Find Them](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2509.02046/) (2025)

## Built on by (most cited first, 6 of 6)

- [Optimizer Memory Schedules for Outscaling the Overtraining Axis](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2609.04577/) (2026)
- [Nonsmooth Optimization via Orthogonalized Momentum](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2609.13677/) (2026)
- [Muon Learns Facts Better: Understanding the Role of Spectral Orthogonalization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2610.02798/) (2026)
- [Optimizer Geometry Sets the Pace: Spectral Learning Dynamics in Matrix Factorization](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2610.04249/) (2026)
- [The Best Optimizer Depends on Batch Size](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2610.08975/) (2026)
- [How Inner Optimizers Shape Replica Scaling](https://mlsanity.com/paper/2610.19064/) (2026)

## Abstract (arXiv)

Higher-order optimizers such as Muon and SOAP offer faster convergence than AdamW, but their computational cost and numerical stability challenges have limited adoption at scale. In this work, we adapt and enhance preconditioned gradient methods to overcome the practical challenges of large-scale LLM pretraining. We first identify instabilities in SOAP at large batch sizes and propose algorithmic modifications including per-step QR orthogonalization and improved preconditioning strategies that eliminate loss spikes and enable stable training in these regimes. We then present a unified empirical study of SOAP, Muon, and AdamW using update-RMS matching to ensure fair learning rate transfer across optimizers. As part of this analysis, we empirically evaluate the orthogonalization quality of Muon. Our experiments on multi-billion-parameter models trained on trillions of tokens reveal that SOAP and Muon consistently outperform AdamW at the scales we tested. Notably, at batch sizes of up to 100M tokens for next-token prediction, these optimizers maintain training stability and quality while AdamW degrades. To enable efficient training at large scale, we introduce a layer-wise distributed optimizer compatible with Megatron-LM. Our implementation balances memory and hides communication while avoiding approximations to the optimizer computations, thus retaining their convergence benefits. Additionally, we identify and build specific system-level improvements to further accelerate our layer-wise implementation. To support the research community, we release a codebase that contains emerging algorithms for optimization: https://github.com/NVIDIA-NeMo/Emerging-Optimizers